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Episode #624 - Year-End Planning: Estimated Tax Payments

Roger: For last year's words belong to last year's language and next year's words await. another voice, T.S. eliot. Welcome to the show dedicated to helping you not just survive retirement, but to have confidence and clarity so you can lean in and rock it to make it a great retirement. I wanted to say that a little bit slower than I normally do because I want to make sure the words are heard. We can, you know, we have these words that we say over and over and over again and it's easy to lose the meaning of them. I want to make sure that you clear the battlefield and focus on the most important things so you can be comfortable and confident in your decision making so you can have this great retirement. It is so easy to get confused. And we're going to be rededicating ourselves to clearing the battlefield to help you focus on the right things and not worry so much about all the stuff that we hear for 2026 today on the show in our retirement toolkit, we're going to talk about estimated tax payment coming up in January, which we make it in January 15th, but it's actually for Q4 of 2025. We'll give you some basics there then, since it's the last week of the year, we're going to have some fun with words that need to be retired when you retire. I got a lot of emails on this. I'm going to share some of your thoughts on words you hope to never hear or use again. And then lastly, we're going to talk about words for 2026. I'm going to share my word for 2026 and a few of you emailed in sharing yours. These are words that are awaiting our new voice for 2026. So I'm excited about that and if we have time, we'll get to a few of your questions. Now make sure you tune in next week because we are starting our retirement plan live. Case study with Henry and Lucy. They are in their 40s and they're looking to retire. So this is like a retire on, fire type of series. So we'll be building that out week by week. Okay, my last little announcement before we get started and that is, if you haven't checked it out, go to rogerwhitney.com click on free resources. We've recreated our resource center. It's actually a free part of the club. Much more organized and easy to navigate and also gives us a platform to do some fun, and interesting things in 2026. Big thank you to Monkey Dog and Nicole for spearheading this, it's a lot of work in the background. So hopefully this will be more resourceful for you or you'll find it more resourceful. With that said, let's get to the retirement toolkit.

RETIREMENT TOOL KIT

ROGER EXPLAINS WHY ESTIMATED QUARTERLY TAX PAYMENTS MATTER IN RETIREMENT AND HOW THEY CAN HELP PREVENT UNWELCOME TAX SURPRISES.

Roger: Last day of the year. Why not talk about taxes for this year, 2025, with a smile on our face? Because I don't think owing taxes is a bad thing. I mean, we're giving money to the government, which does a lot of great things for us. But what really gets me about taxes and likely you, if you're like most people I know, it's not the fact that you owe a tax and the number can be shocking for sure, but it is the surprise where you didn't think you owed something and you did, that is much more frustrating than knowing that you have a big bill and you're paying it along the way. One way you can help manage big surprises or your tax bill so you can manage against having those big surprises is making estimated quarterly tax payments. So we're just going to talk about this briefly. This isn't going to be a complete summary, but we have an estimated payment for Q4 2025 coming up and it's due January 15 of 26. So the key action is to forecast your Q4 2025 tax payment. And we're going to talk a little bit about how to do that. Luckily, the government, the IRS gives us a safe harbor. Well, let me step back for a second there. Why would we pay estimated taxes? Well, when you retire, you're probably not used to receiving income without taxes being paid on it. Likely you had a W2 job. So when you got your pay stub, the employer managed taxes being sent to the IRS for income taxes, etc. But when you retire and you receive income, let's say a distribution from an IRA or a pension, they don't automatically calculate and withhold taxes. So you get all of the money and then you're responsible for paying the taxes. This can be a big surprise early in retirement because we're not used to that. And that's where that negative surprise can happen. So that's essentially why the government has a system of making estimated tax payments.

HE OUTLINES SAFE HARBOR RULES AND PRACTICAL BEST PRACTICES FOR WITHHOLDING TAXES FROM SOCIAL SECURITY, IRA DISTRIBUTIONS, AND PENSIONS.

Roger: And so there is a safe harbor that they give us, which is nice, which is if you take 100% of the tax you paid in the prior year, let's say that you paid 20,000 in 2024, which would be the prior year if you pay a quarter of that each quarter or $5,000 each quarter by paying an estimated tax by the deadline and we'll have a list. Actually I think we have a resource for estimated tax payments. So we'll get you those resources in our weekly email. The Noodle. They have a safe harbor. Say hey, if you owed 20,000, 2024 in federal tax, as long as you pay one quarter of that each quarter in the next year 2025, you're going to be safe from penalties. And that will be your quote unquote safe harbor. Now it doesn't get you out of any additional tax you might owe, it just gets you out of the penalty. So we'll have a best practice that you can follow here at the end of this. Now they have a CAVEAT, as the IRS always does. If you make over 150,000 in the prior year adjusted gross income, then you have to pay 110% in order to get that safe harbor. So it's good to know. So we have the safe harbor. So at a minimum, if you look at your 2024 federal tax, if you pay a quarter of that each quarter, you'll have some safe harbor, at least from penalties. Doesn't get you out of tax if you happen to earn more this year, but at least you'll get out of penalties.

But let's get down to just some basics. If you're thinking you might be facing a quarterly tax payment, what documents do you need? Well, if you're on Social Security, you're going to want to know what amount of income you receive from Social Security and whether they withheld tax at all. And that would have been something that you set up when you filed for Social Security. And the form for that is SSA 1099. Now you may not get that before January 15th, so you'll have to go into your Social Security site and find that number. Boy, you want to know one, how much Social Security income did you get and if there was federal tax withheld, what was it? You're going to want the year end account statements for all of your investment accounts, IRAs and after tax accounts because they're going to show you interest and dividends and capital gains realized throughout the year. Those are going to be numbers that you'll need during tax time. But the official forms that you're going to receive for at least after tax accounts are different varieties of 1099, 1099 dividend int b oid. These are all just things you'll get from your brokerage firms. And then if you were self employed or had 1099 income, you'll need your 1099R. These are documents that will give you all the income numbers that you're going to need to have. This is really for tax time. But what about your January 15th estimated tax payment? If you look at your account statements and your statement from your pension, if you receive a pension, if you haven't had any taxes withheld from anything in 2025 for this fourth quarter payment, again, we don't give tax advice, but we're talking about the issues here. Talk to your tax advisor, your cpa. If you haven't withheld anything, and we're already in the fourth quarter, the last day of the fourth quarter today, and you're going to have this potentially estimated tax payment. You could just wait till April 15th when you file your taxes. If you wanted to make a quarterly tax payment, you could use that safe harbor of one quarter of 100% of whatever you paid in 2024. Or if you're over the 150,000 AGI limit, 110%. You could just use that because the horse is already out of the barn and gone here. But it might help you save a little bit of penalty because it's for income received from September 1st through December 31st. Again, this is an action item, but this is a little late. Really. What, you know, the more important thing we want to do is have you set up for 2026. So whatever happened because you weren't aware of this or you haven't taken care of this, you can avoid it in the future and avoid some penalties and interest.

So what are just some best practices when it comes to receiving income after you retire? Well, number one is to have federal taxes withheld from your Social Security payments. If you think you're going to be paying taxes on those payments and that's going to be based on income. You can ask the IRS to withhold 7 or 10 or 12 or 22% automatically from your paycheck. That is a good practice if you think you're going to owe taxes because you make other income that makes part of your Social Security taxable. And you can just do that at the irs and maybe we'll create a how to video on how to do that. Two is when you have IRA distributions automatically have the distribution the brokerage firm withhold taxes and send it directly to the government. This is a great practice. We typically do this at the 12 to 15% tax bracket, depending on the client. But you can work through dinkytown.net and look at an estimate of what your taxes are and come up with a percentage based on your average tax rate. But that's good practice. You fill out a form if you have distributions on demand at your brokerage account where you have your ira and you can say, hey, anytime I take money out, withhold 12% or whatever percentage you want and send that to the federal government. And if you are in a state that has state tax, you can also do the same thing and have money sent directly to the state tax because they have a similar system that in terms of estimated tax payments, that is a great best practice and you can just have it on file. So that way when you call the brokerage firm or you're submitting a request, let's say for $10,000, you can say I want $10,000 after my taxes are withheld so I get actually $10,000 or gross, say I want a $10,000 distribution. And then you'll receive that less whatever taxes you're withholding. So you can get that all set up at the brokerage firm. So once it's set up, it just happens. And then if you have a pension, you want to do the same thing, you can have your pension payment, withhold taxes and send that directly to the federal and state if necessary. That actually is the better practice. one nice thing about doing this, especially with IRAs, and it's just a quirky thing and I think we talked about this earlier, in December, if you take an IRA distribution, let's say in December, it's annualized for the entire year. So if you didn't make a Q1 estimated tax payment and let's say you underpaid, you can actually do an IRA distribution in the fourth quarter and solve that when it comes to any penalties. So we'll get into that maybe a little bit more next year when we get down a tax rabbit hole of how to set this up. But the main thing I want to do today is remind you if you're retired it at least take a look at this. A little late in the game. So to determine whether you need to make a fourth quarter estimated tax payment in 2025. All right, with that, let's go have some fun with words.

RETIREMENT LIFE LAB

ROGER SHARES LISTENER RESPONSES ABOUT CORPORATE WORDS AND PHRASES PEOPLE ARE EAGER TO RETIRE WHEN THEY LEAVE THE WORKFORCE.

Roger: Holy cannoli. I think I touched a nerve talking about words that we want to retire. When we retire, we send out a weekly email called the Noodle where we recap the show. And I got so many replies sharing words that you people like you don't want to ever hear again. So let's go through a few of them just for fun. Jill says she has a word that she doesn't want to retire, she wants to reclaim it. And that word is socialize. She says, as in, let me socialize that idea with others in the office and get back to you. She says, why did business have to co-opt a word that should be fun and positive and make it so cringy? I hear you, Jill. Kevin says he hopes to never hear incentivize ever again. How do you incentivize people not to use it? I don't know. We'll have to brainstorm. Bill says COB close of business. And also says, thank you, Roger and team, for providing such rich information. You're welcome, Bill. Our next one. I did write down the name. Excuse me. I think it was James. I could be wrong. This person says, I cringe hearing most of those words that you use. So many memories from my previous job. I don't have a specific word to share, but one thing I noticed was how some people would use these words like out and down wrongly or unnecessarily to sound more businesslike. Here is a list I put together from the office. Categorize down, define it down, minimize it down, further filter down, shorten down, merge down, reduce it down, truncate down, document down, restrict it down, minimize down, condense it down, pigeonhole it down, pull less down, consolidate down, trace down, reduce down the duration. Wow, that's a lot. A lot of down. This is a downer company. Give me some of those ups. Hopefully I will never use those on the show. Betsy on, the team says thank you for your work. Team answer man. Regarding what? Organization, man. Woman. Words I don't miss anymore. That weird verbal tic asking or saying right when one is explaining something. It drove me nuts because I always felt the speaker was trying to seduce me and hypnotize me into agreeing with him. Her. Ugh. The nails down the chalkboard. I swear it was one of my reasons for retiring that phrase. Data dump. Have a wonderful rest of 2025. I know what you're saying, Betsy. Right? I mean, really, I don't know. I wonder, Betsy, if it's because of insecurity. Right? Right. Do you agree with me? Right? Right. Am I right or am I just being an idiot using these words? I don't know. Data dump. There's one. Here's, from Doug. I hope to retire the word stat. Also hyper stat. Never heard that one, Doug. Unless someone is bleeding, I don't have to worry so much anymore. Very calming to hear words that are used on a regular basis. Thank you for all the advice. You bet, Doug. Clark, Clark says thank you so much for all the help you do for filling our meaningful retirement. I learned something new every week. I hate to say it, Roger, but I think agile and agility belong on the words to retire list too. Oh. Oh, Clark. Like a knife in my heart, Agile. Okay, we'll take that under consideration. That said, our new advisory firm is being named Retire Agile, so please don't hold that against us. Tanya and I have agreed on that. We know the colors, we have the brand guide. We're working on the brand right now, so let us hold on to that one. Please. Clark, a lot of work went into it, but maybe we cut down on all the agile, management buzzwords. You know, maybe we don't have huddles anymore. Although I sort of like to have our own vernacular. But I get it. I get it.

Stan the man says, I've enjoyed your podcast and learned very much over the years. Thank you for all you do. There's one corporate speak term that is glaringly missing from your list that I was the most eager to retire when I retired nearly four years ago. Performance management process, PMP. that awful time of year involving self evaluations, performance reviews, and ultimately meager annual raises. The worst. Stan, you know we have meetings with team members, coworkers as team members. Ah. Now I'm worried about my words. I don't think of them as performance reviews. That's actually, I think, set up totally wrong. But I know, understand the process well. When you operationalize things in a large organization, Stan, you need to have these kinds of words, I guess. and then Ted, we'll finish with Ted. Retired Corporate terms. Lean daily management, Six Sigma. I'm enjoying my permanent pto or every day a Saturday club. Bravo, Ted. Remember things like Six Sigma. I think of those with all my certifications. They were so important when I got them. And I'm like, that just clutters my name. I want to be known by Roger. Okay, no more Six Sigma. Maybe Six Sigma retirement. Ted, we could change it. Go from Agile to Six Sigma retirement. What do you think about that? let me workshop that and I'll get back to y'. All.

MICK AND PATTY SHARE REFLECTIONS ON FITNESS, TRAVEL, AND MEANING IN RETIREMENT, INCLUDING EXPERIENCES SHAPED BY HISTORY AND FAMILY.

Roger: All right, before we get to the 2026 word reveal, my. My word for 2026. I'm sure you're just at the edge of your seats. Want to go to a rocking retirement in the Wild story. This is Mick and Patty. I have so much to share and so many thoughts and questions, but just a couple. Today I discovered you rehabbing my back on a three wheel recumbent bike in 2021 M. Your adventures in fitness struck a chord with me because Patty and I were avid distance runners and Olympic distance triathletes. Wow. I love it. I thought, here's a guy who gets it. We can still knock out 3050 mile bike rides on our standard hybrids. I am 71. Patty is 70. Blue collar workers who have done okay. And I think our plan, with much guidance from the podcast network of retirement planners, I will tell you about our journey later. Okay, I'm excited to hear this. You're really leaving a lot out there today. I want to congratulate you on your decision to float the Danube with your family. Patty and I did Prague to Regensburg to Budapest in April. And like you guys, we visited many of the places your grandpa had to fly over. Your stories from his journal stayed in my thoughts. I would look at the sky and imagine what it must have been like when the planes were flying overhead. I looked at the many bridges that were rebuilt and some that survived and remembered your shared stories. Thank you for sharing and your guidance. I look forward to sharing our financial journey with you soon. Merry Christmas to you and your family, Mick and Patty. Merry Christmas to you too.

FOCUSING FORWARD: A WORD FOR 2026

ROGER DISCUSSES THE PRACTICE OF CHOOSING A SINGLE WORD TO DEFINE THE COMING YEAR AND READS LISTENER-SUBMITTED WORDS FOR 2026.

Roger: Now let's get to the word for 2026. Let's talk about setting a word for 2026. This is a practice I started about 10 years ago, and I don't know how it came to be. Maybe it was a coach that recommended it or I read an article and maybe a listener suggested it. And that first year, the word just came to me when I was thinking about the season I was going into in the coming year. Because usually I'll do this in November or December. It's just, yeah, that's the word. And it just resonated with me. Ah. At a deep level. And so it wasn't really that difficult. Other years it was a little harder. I had to brain, you know, brainstorm it a little bit and come up with a word. There wasn't a natural one that came and I found it very helpful over the years. So what are some of the words that I've had over the years? The, freedom was a word. I think Nicole got me a pen to remind me so I could use it every day. Focus was a word. Emma, my daughter at the time, she was into wood burning, so she made a little plaque with the word. This year, the word is outdoors. So I'll talk about how I did on that one. Other words were curiosity was a word. Freedom. Operationalize was a word. I'm in business. I was in business, I was operationalizing. Now we're doing that again with a new firm. I don't recall the words. For a while I would get a totem of sorts like a pen like Nicole got me or the board Emma got me. When I was wearing suits, I would buy a suit and have the word embroidered in inside of the suit jacket. So all my suits had names. Now don't quite fit in those suits anymore and I don't really wear suits anymore. But that was a way of memorializing them and I enjoyed this and Nicole got into this for a while. So this year the word was outdoor. So I wanted to be outdoors. It was our first full year of having our place in Colorado. We spent five, six months there. And so I wanted to be outside. I want to be in the sunlight. I didn't want to be exercising in the gym. I wanted to be outside exploring. So how did I do with that word? I'm going to give myself a B minus. And the reason I'm giving myself a B minus is I'll give myself an A. When we were in Colorado it is so easy to be outdoors where we have a place. You can't help but be outdoors on the patio. If you're reading, you're walking everywhere. I mean I would drive my car for a week or two. I could walk to the grocery store. It was nice. I could ride my bike from right from the house up the mountain. You couldn't help but be outdoors. So A plus in Colorado. But then the time that we spent in Texas, which is still the majority of time very different. I'd give myself a M C, C M C. A solid C. It's just doesn't. It's not as easy to do and I feel like I'm making excuses. We walk the dog every day. Mountain biking. It's at least a 40 minute drive each way. Logistically it just gets in the way. So you just tend not to do it. I have a gym in my house which is one of my kids old rooms, old rooms where I work out and that's not outdoors. So hit or miss. And I think part of having a word that is the season that you're entering into is setting yourself up for success. Little tiny habits. Exercise here to m decrease the resistance to the thing that you're trying to do. And I think that basically was Texas and Catar al for me. And sometimes when you choose a word, you get a quarter away through the year and you realize this word isn't working. And Nicole had this instance. I can't recall the word off the top of my head, but she had a word. And then life really came at her in unexpected ways. She's busy life with three kids, husband, all sorts of stuff going on. And it was very clear mid year that that word, the season for that word was not then because of, how that year unfolded. So she just abandoned the word. And I think that's totally cool, that is okay to do. So this is where this idea of the word came about.

Now I talked about this and we've had this happen on the podcast where I've challenged people to come up with a word that'll probably be the smart sprint today, FYI And I had a few people email me. Listeners email in sharing their words. Oh, I want to share theirs first. Cheryl, her word in 2026 is fulfillment. Add that to the word to the retirement list metrics. Interesting. Now we can all look up a definition of what these words mean, but it doesn't really matter. You'll see when I share my word that all that matters is your definition and what focus that word brings to you. So for Cheryl, fulfillment is bringing something specific for her on this retirement journey. Here's another one. This is from Rob. I retired six months ago after a fast paced, usually frantic career. Although the work was rewarding, I was exhausted and ready for the next chapter. I don't miss the work, but I'm finding it difficult to downshift. And so as I continue my transition into retirement, I will work on being comfortable and happy and being still. Still. That's my word for 2026 still. I can relate, Rob. I struggle with this still as well. And lastly, from Louis. We're planning for 2026 by researching our move to Spain in the fall of 2026. Consolidating our finances by streamlining accounts and eliminating some investments and curating our belongings. Keeping what we use and love. Listen to your podcast over the last two years has played a big part in getting us to this stage in life. Thank you for that, Louie. I love that you got a couple of words. Researching, consolidating, curating. I love it. Play your own game, dude. You can have three words because they mean a season that you're entering. and I wish you all the best. Never been to Spain. Need to get out there.

All right, hot off the press. I'm going to move from Louis, back to words. We want to retire. I was in my email. I had hit pause and I was in my email for a purpose that I forgot. But I had two more emails on words that people want to retire. They keep coming in. this one from James, and I won't read everything he said, but he says using solution as a verb. They were solutioning or let's solution this together. All right, we got to retire that one. I agree with you.

All right, we got one more here. I'm just opening this up. My first time ever reading this. This isn't work related, but I cannot stand when people say price point instead of simply price or cost. The point is unnecessary and sounds to me like marketing type mentality. You're very right, Clay, that what price point should we be at? It is a marketing term, I believe. Okay, sorry about that. I just was in there and wanted to make sure the, the people's voices were heard.

ROGER REVEALS HIS OWN WORD FOR 2026.

Roger: Okay. So my word for 2026 is danger. Ooh, danger. And this actually came to me in a meeting with my Retire Agile team, where we have standing meetings because we do that. And it was a client experience team. And this team Tanya runs. So she is in charge of that team and pretty much everybody on our, in our, everybody that works with us are on that team. But she runs a meeting. We have a standing meeting every Tuesday and we use an EOS type of structure. So we have wins and then we have scorecards and then we have issues that we're trying. We have rocks that we're trying to. Lot of corporate stuff. Right. Anyway, this meeting lasts hour, hour and a half. Big meeting. Tanya runs it and she runs a great meeting. She is focused. We get a lot of stuff done. And so we're about 40 minutes into this meeting. She's running the meeting. Troy and Aaron and Kim are contributing and Laura Lee are contributing to ideas to solve really specific issues. And I had a couple things, but I wasn't participating a lot. There just wasn't a lot for me to contribute. And if there's not, it's probably good to keep your mouth shut, which I did. So I was observing Tanya run this meeting. Everybody working to solve an issue, like a big win for us. If we have an issue that we're working on, we take the time, in theory, to solve it forever rather than just pick at it. That's why the medians are longer than normal, usually an hour and a half or so. So I'm sitting there not contributing a lot, watching the team do all of this stuff. And I'm slowly starting to feel uncomfortable in that. I was uncomfortable, I was feeling insecure. I was feeling. I'm, not. I'm going to use the word marginalized. Although that wasn't what anybody was doing. This is just my head trash. And so I was observing. And as I was feeling this, I was observing my feeling about this and just the role of the meeting. And afterwards I took like five or 10 minutes and just journaled a little bit and realized that what was happening was at least. Best I could tell is I usually run everything prior to the merger. I own the company. I just ran everything and I wasn't needed in this meeting. And it led me to some insecurity bubbling up. Not that anybody did anything, this is just me. And I realized, like. But wait a second. The things they were talking about, that meeting are the things I'm not great at. They don't excite me. This is one of the many things I love about Tanya, is that she really gets into the stuff that she was talking about. Those details. This is actually what I wanted, so why would I feel bad about it? And what I realized was in our, you know, we. We experience this when we leave retirement. We experienced this in many, ah, ways in life, is that it was different and it was renegotiating the terms and I was losing some of my identity or my identity was transforming to a new identity. But I was still holding on to all of the good feedback I got from the old one. And that's scary and that's hard. And so I gotta lean into this. I'm not gonna run away from that. This is what I want. Tanya is an amazing partner and an amazing planner and operator, and I'm so blessed to work with her. I'm so blessed that the team and Troy and Aaron are all taking charge in different ways. And Kim, I gotta lean into this. I gotta run away from this. This is good because this will help us serve the people that we serve much better, which will help us have the hopefully positive influence that we can have in people's lives and then the world. So me not entering that danger is selfish. So I gotta go into this forest. So that's it. That's my story about danger. And I have that feeling in a few other areas of my life. Even as I'm aging and my body feels different. I don't want to run away from that. I want to lean into that, in charge into that and acknowledge seasons that are happening so I can create a Great life and not live in fear. So for me, I have some of these areas professionally and personally, where I want to lean into the danger of some of these things. I don't want to run away from them. So that's my focusing word for 2026. We'd love to hear yours. If you get our weekly email, the Noodle, you can hit reply, and that comes right to me. And we'll collect some of those and we'll have a future segment if we get enough of them and share some of those words so we can all lean into the season that we're entering into. Let's go set a smart sprint.

SMART SPRINT

Roger: And we're off to set. A little baby step we can set in the next seven days to not just rock retirement, but rock life. All right, it's the 31st. You can still do this in 2026. Don't feel obligated to choose a word, but think about the year ahead. Don't make resolutions per se, but how would you define that year? What season are you entering into? It could be a big one, it could be a small one, could be personally, it could be professionally. And if a word comes to you, hold on to that a little bit and see if that can be a focusing principle to help you navigate that season successfully.

CLOSING THOUGHTS

Roger: Before we end the show, I have a little feedback from a listener related to charity and giving back to the world. Say thank you for this week's podcast. I especially appreciated the discussion about opportunity slash responsibility for those of us fortunate enough to have the resources for comfortable retirement and then some to give back. There are so many needs and so much inequality in the world. I have found the focus on how to spend extravagantly on ourselves troubling. Thanks for you. Thank you for beginning to address this important issue. Please bring us more attention on ways and places to give and the joys of making this kind of difference in the world. I think that's a really important point, and I think both are actually important in giving, to the world, resources and time, but also giving to ourselves, sometimes extravagantly. I think both are important. Now we can debate the. The, you know, how you weight all of those things, and that's a whole nother discussion. But I think it's important to enjoy what you have, and many of us have a very hard time doing that. Some of us would only give to charity and deny ourselves even simple pleasures for ourselves or for our families that can rob us of memory creation. And so there's some you know, what might seem extravagant to one person is normal to another person. But I think those joys that we have from using our resources, whether that's time or money, is really important. And at this stage in life, I think it's worth doing. But, it's also important to give back to the world in some way. And that doesn't have to be in a huge, big name on a building sort of way. It can be just the unsung heroes that work in our community. So I think they're both important and I appreciate the feedback and we will lean into that as well because they're both important. Happy New Year. Make good choices tonight.

The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual. All performance references are historical and do not guarantee future results. All indices are unmanaged and cannot be invested in directly. Make sure you consult your legal, tax or financial advisor before making any decisions.